London: There was nothing remotely hilarious or witty about director Todd Phillips' 2019 Joker, a chilling, outlandish portrayal of Batman’s twisted nemesis that left audiences divided. Some critics branded it "ingloriously toxic and cynical," while others hailed it as a cinematic masterpiece with Joaquin Phoenix’s tour de force performance at its core.
Five years after Phoenix's Oscar-winning turn as the disturbed, anarchic clown-for-hire Arthur Fleck, the dynamic director-actor duo returns with a bold, ambitious sequel: 'Joker: Folie À Deux', hitting UAE cinemas on October 3. This time, pop superstar Lady Gaga joins them as Harley Quinn, Arthur’s partner-in-crime, in a musical that’s as dark as it is daring.
In an exclusive roundtable interview with Gulf News in London, Phoenix, dressed in a basic white t-shirt and jeans, exhibited a charmingly awkward demeanor, laughing nervously until somebody from his team offered him a black hoodie. He revealed he had no reservations about blending heavy themes of mental illness and societal decay with song and dance.
"It seemed like a natural extension of where the last film ended... At the end of the first film, he starts singing ‘That's Life’ from Frank Sinatra, of course, very quietly. And it's like really internal. So in some ways, it feels like there's just a natural extension of that moment," Phoenix said, alluding to the haunting and dramatic climax of his 2019 blockbuster that captured Fleck/Joker’s deep disconnection from reality. Confined in Arkham State Hospital, a psychiatric facility for the criminally insane after committing multiple murders—including three Wall Street businessmen, his former coworker Randall, and talk show host Murray Franklin—Arthur is questioned by his psychiatrist about his mental state. In this vulnerable moment, he quietly laughs and sings about being a "puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet," underscoring his descent into madness.
However, hitting pitch-perfect notes wasn’t the goal for Phoenix or even a trained singer like Lady Gaga, who plays his toxic and tumultuous lover in the sequel. In this Warner Bros Pictures production, Joker is awaiting trial for his crimes, while Lee plays his troubled and provocative fellow patient.
"We wanted Arthur to sing these classics like somebody who had just heard these songs on the radio while growing up versus kind of performing them as you might typically expect in a musical. I thought there was something really interesting about this character in the second film being largely silent for the first ten minutes. When he truly expresses himself for the first time, it’s through a song after meeting Lee [Harley Quinn]. I thought that was such an interesting idea,” explained Phoenix.
Contrasting Worlds:
Just as Lady Gaga reportedly had to unlearn her musical notes and not appear performative, Phoenix had some unlearning to do as well. Firstly, he had to outgrow the discomfort he naturally felt while singing in front of a Grammy-winning singer like Lady Gaga.
“I am not a singer. I don’t sing even for fun. So it was really uncomfortable, especially to sing in front of somebody like her. When you do things like that, you kind of expose yourself in some ways, and it makes you close to each other. I think she saw how nervous I was to sing in front of her, and it probably endeared me to her,” said Phoenix. He told Gulf News that he had never met her until director Todd Phillips invited him to his place along with the singer.
“She had really great ideas. She was warm, and I loved the way she talked about music. She’s so knowledgeable about music, and I really appreciated that I’d be working so closely with someone who knew so much about music… She likes talking to people about music, and she likes it when they learn something from her,” said Phoenix. Plus, learning to waltz with someone is a great way to break the ice.
“At some point, we decided to just waltz to a song she had written... And that’s very intimate because you are working with each other, not just in proximity, but in the amount of time you spend with somebody.”
Learning to waltz was just scratching the surface for this actor, who has always displayed extraordinary dedication to his roles. Learning to tap-dance at 48 was no joke, he adds. Perhaps, that’s what makes Phoenix one of the most compelling actors of our generation.
Undoubtedly, 'Joker' remains one of his career-defining movies. From shedding 23 kilos to embracing a restrictive diet of lettuce and steamed vegetables, Phoenix prioritises authenticity in his on-screen characters, even as it triggers an avalanche of admiration for his unwavering devotion as an artist and criticism for potentially glorifying violent behavior. However, he doesn’t know if movies like 'Joker' alter him as an actor.
“It’s hard to say what effect any of that [films] had on me. I don’t know… But every new experience changes you. I remember reading this thing about how important it is to take new tasks and things that you are not comfortable with and to challenge your brain… Like you walk or drive a different way to work because falling into repeated patterns makes your brain slow down and stop growing,” said Phoenix. Coming back to tap-dancing, he remembers learning it for a year when he was a nine-year-old kid. It wasn't enough, realising that a year of tap dancing may not just cut it.
“I thought it would all come back to me, but it wasn’t so… Perhaps those things probably change you as an actor… For this film, we were clear that emotions had to motivate the songs, and that was an important element… The idea wasn’t about hitting any right notes here… There are moments where my character can express what they are feeling through a song. So, that was so interesting, new, and different… I am sure it has affected me, and I have learned, but I just can’t say precisely.”
Artistic evolution:
Notably, he is famously shy about discussing his process or his method of acting. In 'Gladiator', he captivated audiences as the conniving and ruthless Commodus, a man driven by jealousy and ambition, while in 'Her', he played Theodore Twombly, a lonely writer who develops a profound emotional connection with an artificial intelligence system. Exploring love, loneliness, and vulnerability in the rawest manner is what sets him apart. So is he a risk-taker of an actor who loves to walk to the end of a mountain and just jump to see where he lands?
“I don’t know about that… What excites me or is inspiring is that when we are making a movie—because of the costs, the time, and the efforts, it can be fairly regimented and can take a lot of the spark out of something. A conventional screenplay or ideas can become oppressive… But I look for things that make you uncomfortable for whatever reason. If I don’t fully understand the film and it seems like there’s room to explore and discover, then I have more interest in it,” said Phoenix, who looked genuinely perplexed in the interview when asked to break down his brilliance and mastery over acting. So is it the fear of failure that motivates him, we prodded?
“I have never felt like I have achieved a lot, but that’s probably healthy, right? Because then you keep being curious and you feel like you still have something to say or express,” said Phoenix haltingly.
He weighs his every word and doesn’t make a lot of eye contact. However, it was clear that he observed everyone in that roundtable. When a journalist from France was silent for long, he genuinely asked him: “Are you allowed to talk?”
Not many actors observe since they are in the spotlight to answer smoothly, but Phoenix isn’t cut from that media-trained cloth. He weighs every question that comes his way before answering.
When Gulf News asked him if Joker would have been treated differently had he been as privileged or wealthy as Bruce Wayne, the alter ego of Batman, Phoenix had an interesting take.
“We are talking about these two fictional characters' rights. So part of the myth was that Bruce Wayne had access to everything, but he is also still traumatised… That said, if you have means, you have access to greater opportunities. The way we are helping or not helping Arthur through trauma is something that obviously needs to be worked on. But what’s interesting about the connection between Joker and Bruce Wayne is that they both seem traumatized by things that happened in their youth,” said Phoenix.
In other words, Arthur and Bruce are haunted by their pasts—one by poverty and neglect, the other by the violent loss of his parents—suggesting that no amount of wealth can fully protect someone from psychological damage. Perhaps it’s the film’s keen exploration of complex themes such as class disparity, privilege, and the stark duality between Bruce Wayne's wealthy upbringing and Arthur Fleck's marginalised existence that made it a stupendous success. So was there a need for a sequel?
“The only thing that was important to me is to just honor the first film and yet also be irreverent enough to allow it to go in a different direction. Todd Phillips and Scott Silver did that really well…”
He’s also keenly aware that Joker has amassed its own loyal fan base.
“This film meant a lot to a lot of people… A lot of people were really affected by it [Joker]. They felt they saw themselves in the character… There’s pressure, but sometimes you have to just follow your instinct as a creative and you can’t let the pressure dictate what you do.”
Clearly, just like the trailblazer Phoenix, this grim movie, showcasing anarchy and Arthur's trial presented like a reality TV show, will march to its own musical beats.
