Opinion | Columnists
Revolutionary mates
Saddam Hussain (High Value Detainee No 1) was interviewed on February 18, 2004 at a military detention facility at Baghdad International Airport (BIAP), Baghdad, Iraq. Saddam provided the following information:
- Agencies
- Published: 23:10 July 19, 2009
- Image Credit: AP
- Saddam Hussain is welcomed by members of the Baath party to a special session in Baghdad on October 14, 1996.
Shortly after his arrest in December 2003, former Iraqi president Saddam Hussain was interrogated by the FBI.
The secret interrogation documents, which were made public only recently by the National Security Archive, an independent non-governmental research institute in the US, shed light on the state of mind of Saddam, executed in December 2006.
In this series, Gulf News is running the transcripts of the 20 formal interrogation sessions and 5 'causal conversations' he had with a senior FBI agent.
In the seventh session, Saddam talks of roles of Safdun Shakir and and Abdul Karim Al Shaykhli in the Baath.
Session 7
February 18, 2004
Baghdad Operations Centre
Interview conducted by George L. Piro
Saddam Hussain (High Value Detainee No 1) was interviewed on February 18, 2004 at a military detention facility at Baghdad International Airport (BIAP), Baghdad, Iraq. Saddam provided the following information:
Prior to the start of interview, Saddam was informed that this session would be a continuation of the two previous discussions. Topics to be covered would include a discussion of Safdun Shakir, among others.
Saddam acknowledged that Shakir was an example of someone in the Baath Party (the Party) who had "served out his abilities".
Nevertheless, Shakir was someone with whom Saddam maintained contact after his departure from service to the Party. Saddam first met Shakir in the Taji Prison near Baghdad.
Both Saddam and Shakir had been sentenced to prison upon change of the Iraqi government in late 1963 when a coup led by Abdul Salam Aref overthrew the Baath government. During 1965 or 1966, Saddam and Shakir were transferred to Prison No 1, also near Baghdad.
At some point, Shakir was released but continued visiting Saddam in prison. During this time, their friendship continued and developed more.
Eventually, Saddam and Abdul Karim Al Shaykhli escaped from prison with the assistance of Shakir, who served as their driver during the escape.
After escaping from prison, Shakir was still a member of the Party and served in that capacity. During this period, Saddam continued friendly relations with him.
He described Shakir as a very trusted person whom Saddam considered as a friend to him and to his children. Shakir was one of the original seventy "revolutionaries" of 1968.
When questioned regarding positions held in the Party by Shakir, Saddam commented that, like any other leader, Shakir would accept any assignment. Saddam does not remember any of these assignments and stated this was not important.
He was a friend and that is what is important. Saddam suggested that the interviewer should ask Shakir in order to confirm this information.
Regarding whether Shakir was Director of the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS), Saddam replied it is well-known that he was the IIS Director.
The interviewer opined that it is generally accepted that someone in charge of an organisation such as an intelligence service should have certain qualifications and abilities prior to appointment to such a position.
Saddam replied, "We were all young revolutionaries." As such, they did not have the necessary experience and learned "on the job".
Saddam added that regarding management matters, they learned from the Party. Saddam stated leading people is the most difficult thing in life. Whoever can lead people in the Party, and the masses, will be effective in their jobs.
Saddam continued saying Party members "gave it a try" with some succeeding and some failing. Party members continued in their positions until the responsibilities of their work overcame their individual abilities.
At this point, they were replaced. Regarding Party members with a military background, Saddam noted this military experience was limited and did not necessarily translate into something useful for governmental affairs.
Saddam acknowledged Shakir served as IIS Director at an important time of the revolution. He noted, however, that the entire history of a revolution is important. Perhaps, Shakir did not serve at the most critical time. Saddam added, "Difficulties become larger when the job becomes larger.''
The interview then turned to a discussion of Shaykhli. Saddam acknowledged Shaykhli was a fellow revolutionary and a friend.
Saddam and Shaykhli participated in the assassination attempt against Iraqi President Qasim in 1959. Each escaped Iraq and fled to Damascus, Syria.
There, Saddam and Shaykhli's friendship and brotherhood continued and grew stronger. After Syria, their friendship continued upon moving to Cairo together.
After the first Baath revolution of 1963, Saddam and Shaykhli returned to Iraq together. Upon return, Saddam worked with farmers and Shaykhli with investigations at the Qasr Al Nihayya (The Palace of the End).
Later, Shaykhli was appointed military attache to Lebanon. Upon overthrow of the Baath government by Aref in late 1963, Saddam and Shaykhli went "underground" together.
They remained "underground" until the July, 1968 revolution in Iraq and the resumption of power by the Baath Party. Thereafter, Saddam and Shaykhli served in the Party leadership together until 1971.
Saddam commented that Shaykhli had a very good mind but did not concentrate and focus on the job at hand. According to Saddam, Shaykhli liked to "live and entertain himself".
Saddam told Shaykhli how the Party perceived him. Later, the majority of Party leadership voted to remove Shaykhli from his position. He was later murdered in Baghdad in 1980.
The interviewer pointed out that Saddam had omitted some details of his relationship with Shaykhli including the fact that the two of them had served in prison at the same time after the 1963 overthrow of the Baath government, becoming friends.
As is commonly understood, the interviewer also noted Shaykhli once saved Saddam's life. Saddam responded: "In what sense?"
The interviewer then relayed the details of an incident during the "underground" years of the Baath between 1963 and 1968.
According to the story, Saddam was at Shaykhli's apartment late one night. Saddam decided to leave the apartment and spend the night at a location where weapons for the Party were stored.
However, Shaykhli convinced Saddam to remain at his place. Later, the same night, the weapons storage location was raided by the police. Some believe Saddam might have been killed, or at a minimum, arrested if he had been at the location.
Saddam acknowledged this story is true and that he was with Shaykhli at this time. However, he stated the police could not have captured or killed him.
With Shaykhli driving, Saddam went to the weapons location the next morning. Upon arrival, a policeman at the location put the barrel of his machine gun in Saddam's side as he rang the bell of the house. Simultaneously, Shaykhli sped away from the location in the car.
Saddam explained that although Shaykhli was a brave man, people react differently in different situations.
At that time, Saddam was not widely known and was someone who would not have been recognised. As such, the policeman did not recognise him.
Saddam pretended not to know anything and asked whether this was "Mohammad's residence". Saddam was not concerned about being shot or killed as the police in Iraq do not kill someone easily, unless their life is seriously threatened.
Additionally, people in Iraq generally "know each other" and there are many tribal influences. Even if the law permits such conduct, tribes will seek revenge.
Saddam continued his story saying he surprised the policeman by pushing his machine gun aside and pulling a pistol which he (Saddam) had concealed under his shirt.
Saddam ordered the policeman to place his hands on Saddam's car, which had been previously left at the location and was likely the reason the house was discovered.
Saddam did not want to kill the officer, but decided to fire a round in the air over the policeman's head. The gun malfunctioned, however, and Saddam "reloaded". He told the policeman he would fire one round over his head, and if he moved, a second round into his body
He then fired a round over the policeman's head and the officer "became like a dog". A standoff then occurred as some of Saddam's "comrades" had been arrested by the police inside the house.
These "comrades" heard all the activity outside and told the police their comrade Saddam had arrived with a big group and would kill the policemen. Simultaneously, one of the men in the car with Shaykhli returned to the house with a machine gun.
The police then acquiesced to the "comrades" in the house asking them for their help and to be saved from Saddam and his men.
Thereafter, the standoff ended without bloodshed. Saddam ended this portion of the discussion saying there are many stories from the "underground" period, all of them like "scenes in the movies".
Saddam was told that Shaykhli was described, similar to Saddam, as a prominent and popular Party member at that time.
Saddam responded there is no need and it is not important to compare one person to another. Each person is different, one is not better than the other.
Saddam acknowledged Shaykhli served as Foreign Minister until 1971, whereupon he was removed from this position by the leadership.
Saddam stated that removal of any individual from a position requires a decision by the leadership. Not all may agree on the removal, but a majority was required.
In Saddam's opinion, Shaykhli could have continued his service to the Party and the government. At that time, Saddam believed Shaykhli could have been "criticised" and given the chance to correct his behaviour.
Shaykhli would never have been elected as a Party member without the support of Saddam. Because of Shaykhli's lack of concentration on his work and failure to accept criticism, the Party leadership was "not convinced" of him and decided on his removal.
Regarding whether Shaykhli was viewed as a potential successor to President Ahmad Hassan Al Bakr, Saddam did not agree and said this statement was too strong.
Saddam commented that it appeared as if the interviewer was implying that he removed those from leadership viewed as a threat to Saddam's position of leadership.
From the underground days, Saddam was already in charge. While in prison, the Baath leadership sent a letter notifying Saddam of their recommendation that he become a member of the Baath Party Central Committee.
Saddam answered the letter: "What good am I in prison?" He asked the Party to find someone else, however, they did not listen to his opinion.
Thereafter, Bakr and Saddam served as two members of the Central Committee, a body considered above the Regional Committee and all other Party components. Bakr served as Secretary General and Saddam served as Deputy Secretary General while "underground".
Saddam commented that it is embarrassing to talk about one's own positions. His status in the Party was known, even before the revolution.
All those appointed to Party positions, dead or alive today, deserved these appointments. Basically, it came down to who was elected.
Saddam stated: "It is difficult to talk about myself." Within the Party, members do not like to talk about themselves. Saddam had recommended that members not talk about themselves.
The interviewer pointed out that it is commonly believed, both inside and outside Iraq, that Saddam's potential rivals in the Party were eliminated during the period between the 1968 revolution and Saddam's ascendancy to the Presidency in 1979.
Saddam denied that those on the inside of Iraq would say or believe such information. He agreed that this information could have come from outside Iraq. According to Saddam, this conclusion is the opinion of these people and not necessarily a fact.
Regardless of the information, Saddam stated any examination of this idea needs to be conducted logically. Saddam said there are many examples in history throughout the world of similar ascensions to power after a revolution.
In Egypt, Jamal Abdul Nasser and Anwar Sadat were the only individuals who "stayed" with the revolution, with Nasser eventually becoming leader of the country.
In France, a single soldier, Napoleon, became the leader of the country after the French Revolution when others gave up. American history is also full of examples of this phenomenon. In Saddam's opinion, these are the "revolutionary ways".
According to Saddam, previous uprisings, such as the French Revolution, were tragedies when compared to the times in which we now live.
Revolutions are a new step in government, not a "liberal way" where someone is chosen and groomed to be a leader. Revolutions come from the people.
The 1968 revolution in Iraq included seventy "revolutionaries". Very few of them continued in government and/or Party service after the revolution.
Some were appointed to positions and performed well, some did not. Not all of them had the ability to lead and be professional. Some continued in service while others dropped out over time. Saddam stated they all were servants of the people.
When questioned whether he believed Nasser became a dictator, Saddam replied that he did not agree. Upon responding to a request from the interviewer to define dictatorship, Saddam stated this is a form of government where one person rules alone, without a parliament, council, or committee.
Saddam did not agree with the characterisation that Nasser's government fit this definition. Saddam stated Nasser had a parliament. However, a parliament is not possible at the beginning of a revolution.
Normally, a revolutionary council is first established and is later followed by a parliament or people's committee. Saddam does not like comparing Iraq and its 1968 revolution to Nasser and Egypt.
Nasser was a military person who did not have a political party. In Iraq, the Baath had a Party ranging from the cells in villages all the way to the leadership as well as a parliament elected by the people. The leadership of the Party and the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) discussed everything.
When asked whether Saddam and Shaykhli remained friends after Shaykhli's departure from Party service, Saddam stated his friends were among those with whom he met regularly in the leadership.
He did not have any friends outside of the Party and the leadership. A true friendship has "obligations". Saddam considered Shakir as the person closest to him after the 1968 revolution.
Whenever Saddam needed to discuss something, he would send for Shakir and they would have lunch together and talk. After Shakir left government service, Saddam does not remember how many times they met.
Saddam stated Shaykhli "kept up good relations with his sons Qusay and Uday. Regarding Shaykhli and the period of time after his departure from government service, Saddam's feelings of friendship remained the same, but the two did not spend the same amount of time together.
Due to the demands of work, Saddam did not have time to associate with those outside of work, the Party, or the leadership.
When questioned whether he had special feelings about Shaykhli, who was shot and killed in Baghdad in 1980, Saddam stated, "Yes".
Regarding whether Shaykhli's killer(s) were captured, Saddam responded, "I don't think so.'' An investigation took place, but the crime was not solved.
Saddam stated that not all crimes committed are ultimately solved. He added that other crimes, including those committed against his cousins and those involving the deaths of various Iraqi dignitaries and ministers, remain unsolved.
Saddam noted that not all crimes are solved elsewhere in the world, such as in America, France, or Italy. When questioned whether it was unusual for a crime involving the murder of a former government minister, a former revolutionary, and a former friend of the President of Iraq to go unsolved, Saddam retorted: "What do you want to say. Why are you going around the subject?"
There are others who were close to Saddam in the leadership who were targets of assassination attempts, including Tareq Aziz, Uday Hussain, and others. These crimes remain unsolved as well. It happens in Iraq, just as it happens elsewhere in the world.
Saddam ended the session acknowledging the possibility that some people may say Shaykhli was killed by the Iraqi government. He added that some people might say anything.
Logically, those who would say this are probably the same people who said Shaykhli could have become President.
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